Message design and storytelling for lasting change
Picture: Tamsen Webster
Interview with Tamsen Webster — backstories on her books and her latest research
Tamsen Webster is part keynote speaker, part message strategist — and all about giving big ideas a stage. She combined 20 years in marketing, 13 years as a Weight Watchers leader, and four years as a TEDx Executive Producer into a simple way to change how people see, and what they do as a result. I talked with her in November 2024 about the key learnings from her books “The Red Thread®” and “Say what they can’t unhear”.
Tamsen is a big advocate for a more thoughtful, nuanced approach to storytelling and change management, one that prioritizes understanding, shared assumptions, and intuitive connection over simplistic or manipulative tactics. I saw her first 2020 in an interview talking about her over 25 years of experience in the business of helping leaders and teams to craft a clear message for change, and I inmediately bought her book, “Find your Red Thread”. It is giving a smart yet clear “red thread” for designing any pitch or talk, and I work with it a lot. And, now she wrote another book, Say what they can’t unhear, which is about message design and leadership. So I got the opportunity to interview her.
So here is a summary:
The M&M story
I remember hearing Tamsen tell a story with M&Ms and ask her about it.
Tamsen: “Sure. Well, so as a bit of context, I grew up in the 1970s, and at the time, at least in the US, M&Ms, which we think of now as very, very colorful, were not. It was dark brown. It was tan, orange, yellow. And green was the brightest color that there was. So I like to say it was like the 1970s kitchen of like gold and green.
But so there was this point in the 90s where M&M decided that it was time to add color. I mean, they had already more color, they had already, I think, added red back, once they got the cancer out of the dye. But then they did this big marketing push where it was going to be a vote. It was going to be pink or purple or blue. And I think blue won that in a complete landslide.
But the day they made the announcement, they told everybody something that they had not said ahead of time. That the new color wasn't just going to be added, it was going to replace one of the colors, it was going to replace tan. And you know, the way that I thought about it at the time was like, oh, here was the silly little choice, but here is this little silly choice that had real consequences.
And the thing when it comes to leadership and communication and decision making is the fact that even when we present a choice as kind of completely open and flexible, when it really isn't, when we're not giving people full information, it changes how they feel, not only about the change. Because now I was like super mad at blue because I loved tan.
But it also changes how you feel about the person that put that message out, or in this case, the company that put that out in the first place because they felt deceived. I mean, I felt manipulated into doing this, and maybe it's taking too much out of, you know, what, what M&M chose to do. But I really just thought that when it comes to thinking about how we make decisions, what I really took away from that, and what's really much core to my own work, is the fact that humans aren't rational decision makers. We're rationalizing decision makers. We make decisions based on how we feel in the moment, whether or not they intuitively make sense, but we mean make sense based on what we know to be true already. And then we go back and think about them.
And so the reason why that's important is because no matter how good a message or a keynote or story might make someone feel in the moment, if they realize that that was in fact a manipulation of how people make choices, then you not only lose the benefit of that beautiful story or message in the first place, you actually do damage to the relationship that interferes with your ability to make any future change or future message more successful.”
Words are just the wrapping of the story
Anja: Thank you for the hint that, the relationship is, in the end, the most important thing. With everything, colors and what you are saying and channels and media, all you want to do is influence the bond between you and your customer, client or whoever, right? So if you if you neglect that or if you just don't see it, that, could be naive, right?
Tamsen: “Yeah. And I mean, I've spent my career in message design, as you mentioned. And I think that a lot of times what happens is that when we think about stories, we think about messaging, we actually think that they are the ‘thing’. Right? Like if we can just get the story right, if we can just get the message right, then everything else will happen.
But a lot of stories and the words are just wrappers around an idea and, or around an argument in the first place. So one of my favorite quotes is from the author Agatha Christie. She wrote that words are only the outer clothing of ideas. And so, you know, over the years, as I looked at messages or change communications like the M&M story or other stories, II increasingly realize that if we don't really understand what it is that we are actually arguing for and we're just trying to put a pretty wrapper on it, that’s fundamentally it, because of how people make decisions, how they process information, how they assign trust to people and organizations, that ultimately that lack of clarity or that lack of transparency causes way more problems than it might solve in the short term.
So it's really been my focus over the years to go back and say, let's make sure that we are finding A what it is, this thing that we're actually saying so that we can put the right words on it. And also to do what we can to make sure that we're not trying to just use words, use story, use catchy language, use emotions against people. Right. And that's I think a lot of times what we end up doing, either intentionally or not. And personally, that doesn't align with my ethics. But, I'm glad to be backed up by science here. That it also doesn't work long term for all sorts of other reasons as well.
So, both from an ethical standpoint and an economic standpoint and an efficiency standpoint, I like to make sure that we actually understand the ideas first and then make sure that the words are a genuine representation of the ideas.”
There must be a smarter way to convince than just presenting the solution
Anja: If we look around us in the world today, it needs the good people to be show up in their A version and be as effective as possible when it comes to communication. Right? And and not hide because they think I'm rather not trying to convince other people. On the other hand – of course, they want to. What's your opinion on that?
Tamsen: “Ultimately, back when I first talked about and then wrote about that story, but it's still true today. Is the whole idea that we can only fully embrace change when we fully understand it. And if people realize that there was a form of communicating about it or talking about it, that wasn't where information was withheld or that information was misrepresented, then that just it feels bad. And we remember that feeling long, much, much longer than any positive feeling. Just, you know, false positivity or some kind of raw or scary emotion type of thing. The lens I bring to all of this, because of how long I've spent in and working on change and transformational change in particular, where it's broad and long lasting and durable.
That the best way to make sure that change lasts is to make sure that you have built the introduction of it in a lasting way, and deception, withholding of information, misrepresentation is not something that, over the long term, works well. So, to quote Shakespeare, the truth will out eventually people either will discover something else or they will discover that the actions don't match up to the words. Sometimes you can say anything that you want, but if someone looks historically back and sees that the actions don't match what you're saying, they're not going to trust that message, no matter what it is from the get go.
So this is where I really think of message design, storytelling, etc. not so much of a process of invention but of trying to figure out what story can we tell, what things can we put together? I really see them as an excavation.”
The conversation goes on focusing on the power of stories in shaping decisions and driving change, both personal and organizational.
Here's a breakdown of the key ideas.
Key talking points
Stories as excavation, not invention: Tamsen emphasizes that effective messaging and storytelling are about uncovering the underlying beliefs and assumptions that drive decisions, rather than simply creating narratives. It's about finding the "lines of code" that govern behavior.
Alignment of words and intent: True alignment means ensuring that both the words spoken and the underlying intent are consistent. People are good at sensing incongruity, which can damage trust.
Internal logic and behavioral consistency: People operate according to their internal logic, which is often not consciously recognized. Lasting change requires understanding and addressing this internal logic.
The "underground train" metaphor: Anjas Metaphor of the Manhattan Subway System illustrates the need for alignment between stated goals ("the bus") and the underlying systems or beliefs that either support or undermine those goals ("the underground train").
Transparency and honesty: When difficult decisions must be made, transparency and honesty about the situation and the emotions involved are crucial for maintaining trust and long-term relationships.
Change and long-term sustainability: The conversation emphasizes that sustainable change requires a long-term perspective and an understanding of the internal factors that influence behavior. Quick fixes or manipulative tactics are unlikely to produce lasting results.
Authentic and effective communication, especially in the context of change, requires deep self-awareness, honesty, and a focus on aligning words, actions, and underlying beliefs.
Storytelling as excavation (instead of invention)
Successful change is not just about implementing new actions, but understanding and addressing the underlying stories and beliefs that drive current behaviors.
Here are some key points:
Change as a reaction: Tamsen introduces the idea that change is often a reaction to something else that has shifted, rather than a purely proactive action. This highlights the importance of understanding the underlying causes of change.
The other M&M story: Tamsen tells this story, which serves as a personal example of how a small shift in perspective (understanding the calorie-to-exercise ratio) can lead to significant changes in behavior. It illustrates the power of connecting abstract concepts to concrete, relatable examples.
The power of personal narratives: Individuals operate based on internal narratives and logic, which may not always be consciously recognized. Understanding these narratives is crucial for effective communication and change management.
Addressing emotions in change: Change, especially personal change like weight loss, is often highly emotional. Providing information and clarity can help alleviate some of these emotions and make change more manageable.
The "M&M" analogy: This anecdote illustrates how a seemingly small change (like altering M&M colors) can have a significant impact on people's perceptions and trust, depending on how it's communicated. It also relates to personal change, where understanding the balance between calorie intake and expenditure can lead to better choices.
Change as a process: Lasting change requires consistency, planning, and commitment. It's about taking small, manageable steps and building sustainable habits.
The importance of storytelling: Every decision has a story behind it, and effective storytelling can be a powerful tool for facilitating change. However, it's essential to tell complete stories that address the underlying issues, not just present a problem and solution.
The "Red Thread" framework: This framework emphasizes the importance of understanding the deeper problem or "imbalance of information" that drives the need for change, and then guiding people toward a new understanding or "moment of truth" that makes the change intuitively sensible.
Avoiding manipulation: Effective communication should not aim to manipulate or deceive people. Instead, it should focus on providing clarity, transparency, and genuine understanding.
Giving people credit: When communicating about change, it's important to respect the existing beliefs and motivations of the audience. People generally want to be seen as smart, capable, and good, and effective messaging should acknowledge and build upon these desires.
Understanding the audience's perspective: To communicate effectively, it's necessary to understand the audience's current perspective, the context of their environment, and why they are currently behaving the way they are.
In essence, successful communication and change initiatives require a deep understanding of human psychology, the power of narrative, and the importance of honesty and respect. It's about aligning messages with underlying beliefs, providing clarity, and guiding people toward a new understanding that empowers them to make informed choices.
Storytelling and Science
The next part focuses on the intersection of science, knowledge, and storytelling, particularly in the context of communication and change management. Tamsen emphasizes the importance of understanding the underlying principles of storytelling and applying them to various fields, including science and research.
Here are the key takeaways:
Curiosity and Audience: Tamsen highlights the significance of curiosity about the audience and what motivates them. Understanding and respecting the audience's intelligence and capabilities is crucial.
Intent and Trust: Tamsen cautions against manipulative communication, emphasizing that true intent is often communicated, whether consciously or not. Trust is paramount, and any hint of manipulation can erode that trust.
Smart, Capable, and Good: Tamsen believes {and I must say I really love this statement since I read it in “The Red Thread”} that people fundamentally want to be seen as smart, capable, and good. Communication should honor this desire and avoid making these qualities conditional on change.
The Red Thread: We discuss "The Red Thread" framework, which helps people understand the underlying principles of effective communication and storytelling. This framework is especially useful for experts who may struggle to "sell" their expertise.
Mentorship and the Hero's Journey: Then we explore the role of mentors in stories and cautions against mentors overshadowing social media. The mentor's role is to provide information and guidance, allowing the hero to make their own choices and transformations. Tamsen prefers to frame the mentor role as a "fellow traveler."
Storytelling Principles: While the classic "hero's journey" is a prevalent structure, other storytelling principles exist. These principles include having a problem, a narrative of actions and events, transformation, and ambition. Not all stories need a single protagonist or antagonist.
Sociological vs. Psychological Storytelling: We discuss the difference between sociological storytelling (focusing on competing forces) and psychological storytelling (focusing on individual heroes and villains). Tamsen suggests that sociological storytelling is often more applicable in fields like science and research, where multiple forces are at play.
Complexity and Accessibility: Complex ideas can be made accessible and engaging without oversimplifying them. The key is to understand the audience's current level of awareness and build the story from there.
Storytelling in Science: Anja noted during the time she lived in the US and worked at universities, that here it's common to think of projects in terms of a story, even in science. However, this may not be the case in other cultures, where there might be a divide between "humanities" and "science." Both agree that storytelling is essential in science to convey complex ideas, discuss failures, and explain methodologies.
Objectivity vs. Story: Even scientific results are not purely objective and there's always a story behind them. Recognizing this opens the door to communicating scientific information in more engaging and accessible ways.
In summary, this part of the interview emphasizes the importance of ethical communication, understanding the audience, and applying the principles of storytelling to effectively convey complex ideas and facilitate change in various fields, including science and technology. The "Red Thread" framework and different storytelling structures provide valuable tools for experts looking to communicate more effectively.
A glimpse into the future of storytelling
We concluded the interview focusing on my guest’s current research project and final thoughts.
Here's the summary:
Current Focus: Tamsen's current area of focus is understanding how academic and business communication often exclude scientific discoveries about decision-making and psychology.
Outdated Persuasion Model: The dominant model for presenting persuasive information, which skips from problem to solution and makes the connective piece optional, is outdated and doesn't account for current scientific understanding of decision-making.
Dual Process Theory: Tamsen's research considers the dual process theory (fast and slow thinking) and how information is filtered through pre-existing beliefs and assumptions before rational thought kicks in.
Shifting the Focus: Tamsen is exploring what would happen if, instead of starting with data, communicators first presented the underlying assumptions and got agreement on the general conclusion before diving into details.
Storytelling and the Brain: Storytelling, when based on aligned beliefs, is powerful because it speaks to both the intuitive and rational parts of the brain. It brings up assumptions, presents data and evidence, and allows both "brains" to process information in the order they need it.
Common Ground: The importance of finding common ground first, as seen in diplomacy, is emphasized. Storytelling should also start with shared understanding rather than rushing to the desired change.
The Nine Principles of Lasting Change: "The Nine Principles of Lasting Change" in Tamsen’s newest book are framing everything in the light of change. Anja adds that humans invented storytelling as a tool for community building, leadership, and change.
Argumentative Theory of Reasoning: Tamsen is incorporating the argumentative theory of reasoning into her doctoral work. This theory suggests that humans developed their prefrontal cortex to communicate and assess arguments for individual and collective advancement.
Understanding Before Change: Tamsen reiterates that people need to understand before they can embrace change. This includes understanding what is being said, why it's being said, why it would work, and understanding it in terms they already comprehend.
Story as a Mechanism: Story is described as the mechanism by which humans understand cause-and-effect relationships. Even internally, we need to establish cause, effect, and the principle that connects them for something to make sense.
Intuitive vs. rational Sense: Tamsen highlights the importance of intuitive sense over rational sense in initial understanding. Story is effective at addressing this intuitive understanding.
Checking Understanding: The new book focuses on checking to ensure the audience understands the core message and assumptions. Without this intuitive understanding and agreement at the beginning, even a well-articulated, evidence-based story will not change pre-existing beliefs.
Reframing Beliefs: Instead of trying to change beliefs directly, Tamsen suggests changing the frame around the belief. This can involve keeping the general cause and effect but swapping out elements with something the audience already understands to be true.
Doctoral Research: Tamsen is pursuing a doctorate at Columbia Teachers College, investigating how the "connective tissue" in communication (i.e., understanding, shared assumptions) accelerates the understanding and acceptance of novel and disruptive ideas. The research draws from adult learning, transformative learning, argumentative theory, and construal level theory.
The final part of the interview emphasizes a deep dive into the science of communication and persuasion, particularly how people process information and make decisions.
Tamsen is a big advocate for a more thoughtful, nuanced approach to storytelling and change management, one that prioritizes understanding, shared assumptions, and intuitive connection over simplistic or manipulative tactics. Her ongoing doctoral research aims to further explore these ideas and their applications in education and leadership.
I look forward to following Tamsen’s journey.
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I look forward to following Tamsen's journey. We will be hearing from her again soon, as she will be our keynote speaker at the Storytelling Symposium 2025. All information about it: storytelling-symposium.de
You can find everything about Tamsen at tamsenwebster.com
You can also follow her on LinkedIn and YouTube.
Translated with the support of Deepl and Perplexity.
